(Sigh). It's bad when popular crummy church signs (Smoking or Non-Smoking?) don't even need to be completed to be recognized anymore.
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originally posted and submitted by Zach N., Nashville, TN (ZACH's BLOG)
A homosexual agenda? Like this? :
TO DO LIST:
1. Arrange closet according to style and color.
2. Rewatch last night's TIVO-ed episode of "Project: Runway".
3. Target the children of Lowery Freewill Baptist Church.
etc.
OK, look: I'm on very thin ice here, I realize this. I'm going forward anyhow. Let's assume for a moment that most churchgoers feel that homosexuality is a sin, meaning homosexuals are sinners. If you disagree with the premise of that argument that's fine, that's just the place I am starting this discussion because most churchgoers I have encountered do feel that way. SO: most churchgoers feel that homosexuals are sinners. Well, guess what: So is everybody, and homosexuals should be welcomed in a church regardless of whether you feel like they have an agenda or not. All members of the church should be subject to the guidance and/or discipline of the church equally, but one sin is not greater/worse than others. If sinners cannot attend church, where can they go? And who can attend church, then?
Wouldn't you imagine that there are some people in that church who had sex outside of marriage? Probably half the youth group and most of the college crowd, if we were to be honest with ourselves. Well, if you feel that homosexuality is a sin, then those people are committing the same sin as homosexuals: sex outside of marriage. Do you think they put those people on their church sign? ("Your Youth Group is the target of the Horny Agenda.....") Take it one step farther: do you suppose anyone in that church has lusted after someone else? Oh, probably every single member in the last 24 hours. Read Matthew 5:28. Same sin. So, yeah: gay, straight, we pretty much all....stink (Sorry, almost a very poor choice of words, there.) The good news is that grace is offered to all who will receive it, for all manner of sins and shortcomings.
The fact of the matter is that the above church sign is unwelcoming to a certain group of sinners and that makes it way beyond crummy. The fact that they backhandedly implied that the safety of children was at risk makes it all the worse.
I really bent over backwards on this post not to offend anyone on either side of the fence. Please do not read into my personal beliefs on the matter either way...I am a sinner who is saved by grace, no better than anyone else ever born on this planet, and I hope sinners of all kinds come to know the same salvation through Christ.
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At least I got to flex my smart$^%# muscles on the first sign of this post :)
Keep sending them in.
Love the post, Joel! That was one of the most intelligent commentaries on the church & the "homosexual agenda" [sic] I've ever seen. Thanks for being a thinking Christian.
ReplyDeleteChurches should quit worrying about whether their kids are going to turn out gay--not a whole lot they can do there in the first place--and instead spend much more time worrying about their kids getting sucked in by "the loser agenda" or "the slacker agenda" or "the I'm-a-Christian-and-you're-not-so-you're-worthless agenda." They could get a lot more done that way.
Excellent. Very-much-needed words the Church needs to hear. We have no credibility with the homosexual commmunity because they see the cross and think "hate. People associated with that would hate me." Shame...tragic, da_n shame. A shame that would or should require some heavy millstones and some rope.
ReplyDeleteYou are right on, my friend!! Thanks for having "some sanity in an insane world". (Does that qulaify for a bad church sign?) LOL
ReplyDeleteWell Done. Well Said. Amen
ReplyDeleteOk,nice rant.
ReplyDeleteF.Y.I. I believe everyone is responsible for his/her choices and actions; homosexual or heterosexual makes no difference. Also, I am an agnostic.
I can -in a strange way- see the point the reverend is making, albeit be it after careful consideration:
The point of absolution from your sins through confession is that you are absolved from them and strive to/will not commit the same sin again.
THIS IS IMPORTANT: Your sin is forgiven and you do not repeat that sin.
The point of the reverend is that homosexuals can be forgiven... but not pre-emptively and repeatedly for the same sin.
That is why -my guess- in their particukar brand of faith homosexuals cannot go to that particular church.
The text on the sign however is pure and straight homofobia. It would be the same as saying do not eat at chineese restaurants because they will kill your cat for the next customer.
In my opinion the statement(s) are cow-droppings.
Just getting it of my chest...
Cheers, all
Heh. The Bible is VERY clear on the issue of homosexuality.
ReplyDeleteSomething about motes and beams, IIRC.
Thank you. Very well said. I just wish more people would be of the same opinion.
ReplyDeleteBefore I married, I fornicated. Fornication is a sin and is condemned in scripture.
ReplyDeleteI was called to conversion and repentance. It was clear that God does not want me (or anyone else) to engage in fornication. He loves me and wants the best for me. I clearly and easily understood that my sin and my person were not the same thing. I don't go around asserting that fornication is just fine.
That's what I don't understand about Christians who support those living a homosexual lifestyle.
Homosexuals sodomize. Sodomy is a sin and is condemned in scripture.
They are called to conversion and repentance. It is clear that God does not want them (or anyone else) to engage in sodomy. He loves them and wants the best for them. Can they not clearly and easily understood that their sin and their person are not the same thing? Why do they go around asserting that sodomy is just fine?
I don't think that they ARE asserting that is "fine", necessarily. By that token, NO sin is "fine", now is it? I'd have to say that chances are,they're not.
ReplyDeleteHowever...is it not that we are all as God made us to be? By that rationale, if God did not love homosexuals, why would there be any? Ergo, He would still love them, just as much as He would love any of us, regardless of the nature of our sins.
As for conversion and repentance, I think that one can repent without converting, thank you. I myself am Jewish, and manage the task of repentance and redress quite well without *having* to be converted, thank you. Should I choose to, I choose to. However, making peace with God is not necessarily so limited in definition. And at the risk of heretic statement, I would venture that not being converted does not necessarily mean that you cannot be forgiven...
Lastly, in closing...I am somewhat mystified by people who make the assumption that gay folk *decide* to be gay. Where is the logic in that? Would you really decide on such a way of life, knowing the stigma of it, and troubles, unless you truly felt that that was what you are? I think not. I just have a hard time buying that gay people "decide" to be gay anymore than straight folk decide.
Anyhow...enough said. Singling out individual groups, especially with false information, is wrong. It's hateful. And uhm, isn't hate wrong? At least, that was what *I* was told...
To those who say, "God made them this way," I point you toward any number of vices we agree one should avoid. For example, porn. It's pretty natural and normal for lots of men to really enjoy looking at porn. So, God made them that way because it's their natural inclination. Never mind the negative effect it has on their family life. Maybe a person has an inclination to steal stuff from other people. Maybe you're Jeffrey Dahmer and have a natural inclination to kill people and dissect them. Fine. Just because you have a natural inclination doesn't mean you should act on it. Homosexuality, just as premarital sex or contraceptive sex within the marital bond, is by definition unnatural and therefore those with such an inclination are called to chastity. This sign isn't "against" those people who recognize the disordered nature of their inclinations - it's specifically about those people who repeatedly act on their disordered inclination and believe that it's their job to convince as many people as possible that a)it's not disordered, and b)more people should act on their disordered inclinations.
ReplyDeleteChris Lewis is an absolutely perfect example of why I no longer have any interest in churches, christians (or any other religion for that matter), gods or any of the assorted proselytizers of invisible authoritarians who require constant ego stroking in exchange for sparing his creation from eternal torture.
ReplyDeleteYou people are truly incredible to me--why you would choose to believe the absolutely preposterous fables in the bible is just beyond me. But the fact that you constantly strive to shove your agenda down my throat while screaming hysterically about some non-existent "homosexual agenda" is just despicable.
And please tell me what kind of a cruel, heartless bastard of a god would create a person with an inner nature which this god then declares must be forever denied, thus condemning him to a lifetime of constant longing which can never be satisfied and abject loneliness, since he must never form a satisfying intimate relationship with the object of his predisposition? Is that supposed to be some kind of a divine practical joke? Why would anyone want to follow or "worship" a sadistic creep like that?
And, for the record Chris Lewis, I believe I speak for all homosexuals when I say that I do not appreciate being equated with porn addicts, thieves and murderous cannibals. You smug, small, insufferable bigot--your superior attitude is absolutely sickening.
In my book, YOU are disordered. Anyone who believes that a person's sexual identity is simply a temptation to be resisted is obviously a) an idiot and b) likely a closet-case himself. Grow the hell up and stop trying to marginalize and trivialize a subject you know nothing about.
Oh, thank god...someone finally said it. Thank you studiotodd for being rational thinker.
ReplyDelete“I find myself arguing with a whole bunch of people on the left who ‘know’things that aren’t true. I’m both amused and surprised not only at the
ReplyDeleteignorance out there, but the confidence with which it is bandied about.”
-- Dinesh D’Souza
With regard to your quote from the divisive Dinesh D'Souza, jmail, the exact same thing could be said of those on the right. So what's your point?
ReplyDelete"Sodomy is a sin and is condemned in scripture."
ReplyDeleteI highly doubt that God is upset when my husband and I (both devout Christians) engage in anal sex. We didn't have sex until we were married. We have never had sex with other people. So I really don't think we're in any danger of angering God because it feels pretty darn great when my husband (a godly man and wonderful husband and father) put his penis in my anus while we make love.
My parents (who are both pastors) and my reading of the Bible (I prefer NIV if anybody cares) has never led me to believe that God is as anal (pun intended) as He is interpreted to be.
Right, wrong, left, right... whatever. People need to stop judging - that's His job. YOUR values are not EVERYONE'S values.
ReplyDelete(even if YOUR values are strictly aligned with YOUR interpretation of His values)
There are some people out there who don't even BELIEVE in God. That's their business. Should we keep them out of church? Where's the logic in that?
There are some people out there who worship the devil. Hey, good luck with that. Do those people want to force their "agenda" on my kids? Maybe. Again, good luck with that....
"Christian love among the churches look'd the twin of heathen hate"
ReplyDelete"We are self-uncertain creatures, and we may, even when we know not, mix our spites and private hates with our defence of Heaven
--Alfred Tennyson
Dear CrummyJoel,
ReplyDeleteYour rant was, in my personal opinion, RIGHT ON. Thanks for not being afraid to share a very unpopular (but much needed) alternative to "Christian" hatred and homophobia. I thought your post was not only diplomatic, but also very well written.
I grew up going to church - now I can hardly stand to step foot into one. My feelings towards hypocritical Christians have a lot to do with that.
Thanks for being honest and having a brain :)
BTW, your site is hilarious :)
I am no expert on Christian doctrine, as Sunday school did little to prepare me for the intricacies of debates like this. So, instead of trying to put forth an argument of mine own, I will offer this links:
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_sexuality
Will the argument be that animal homosexuality "doesn't count" because animals don't go to Heaven? I just find it good evidence, for any skeptics, that homosexuality in humans is equally as natural, and therefore not something to be despised.
Out of pure, honest curiosity, which passages in the Bible refer to homosexuality. No one has ever told me (not exactly Sunday school material ^_^).
The passages against homosexuality are to be found in Leviticus, which also teaches us that it's wrong to eat seafood, okay to have slaves, and a big no-no to plant two different crops in the same field. Specifically, Leviticus 18:22 (and 11:10, 25:44 and 19:19 for the other ones...)
ReplyDelete